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	<title>Comments on: Libertarians and War part II</title>
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	<description>Questions through the veil of ignorance</description>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2007/03/13/libertarians-and-war-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-58775</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2007 19:57:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=15#comment-58775</guid>
		<description>The libertarian philosophy strikes me as auto-absconding from the actual dimensions of the world in which their own country is but another inhabitant.  Faced with the actual dimensions of the jihad, their response is to shout their slogans more loudly, as though their philosophical affinity were merely a reflection of a narrow preoccupation with only one or a few facets of problem as complex as this one is.  On the grandest scheme, clearly demuring to isolationist and crypto-socialist sentiments in our country will result in abandoning the field to the jihadis.  Although they have a miserable track record if ever victorious in a country and region, often immediately degenerating into fratricide and introversion, it so happens that a geological coincidence has also made the countries in which they today seek power or from which they wield power are mostly rich with a world-historical source of free cash.  Moreover, the technological innovations of the past 50 years have amplified the destructive capabilities - 

You know these arguments, yes?  Surely you&#039;ve heard them.  These forces constrain liberty.  Not only do they contrain liberty, to a perverse degree, they are empowered to impose at least a lessening of liberty on the countries of their choosing.  This is a simple fact.  It does no good to look away and start yammering about the tendency of wars to increase the size of bureaucracy and justify increased intrusiveness of government. 

Besides, much of this reaction could simply be evaporated with the simple reminder that, for example, This is Not Russia.  The habits of the people matter; the historical expectations matter, however dimly or imperfectly manifest in the imagination of the citizens.  

In any case, I cannot see how proponents of libertarianism can be blind to the fact that their philosophical vocabulary is simply insufficient to deal cogently and completely with the situation facing us.  So strange!  Faced with a novel situation to which the healthy response is unreflective extroverted violence, you look inward and scold and fret.  Now I see why my conspicuously libertarian friend occasionally diverts into sentiments clearly evocative of the socialists, crypto-socialists, and suburban revolutionaries.  Silly ideologues.  Snap out of it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The libertarian philosophy strikes me as auto-absconding from the actual dimensions of the world in which their own country is but another inhabitant.  Faced with the actual dimensions of the jihad, their response is to shout their slogans more loudly, as though their philosophical affinity were merely a reflection of a narrow preoccupation with only one or a few facets of problem as complex as this one is.  On the grandest scheme, clearly demuring to isolationist and crypto-socialist sentiments in our country will result in abandoning the field to the jihadis.  Although they have a miserable track record if ever victorious in a country and region, often immediately degenerating into fratricide and introversion, it so happens that a geological coincidence has also made the countries in which they today seek power or from which they wield power are mostly rich with a world-historical source of free cash.  Moreover, the technological innovations of the past 50 years have amplified the destructive capabilities &#8211; </p>
<p>You know these arguments, yes?  Surely you&#8217;ve heard them.  These forces constrain liberty.  Not only do they contrain liberty, to a perverse degree, they are empowered to impose at least a lessening of liberty on the countries of their choosing.  This is a simple fact.  It does no good to look away and start yammering about the tendency of wars to increase the size of bureaucracy and justify increased intrusiveness of government. </p>
<p>Besides, much of this reaction could simply be evaporated with the simple reminder that, for example, This is Not Russia.  The habits of the people matter; the historical expectations matter, however dimly or imperfectly manifest in the imagination of the citizens.  </p>
<p>In any case, I cannot see how proponents of libertarianism can be blind to the fact that their philosophical vocabulary is simply insufficient to deal cogently and completely with the situation facing us.  So strange!  Faced with a novel situation to which the healthy response is unreflective extroverted violence, you look inward and scold and fret.  Now I see why my conspicuously libertarian friend occasionally diverts into sentiments clearly evocative of the socialists, crypto-socialists, and suburban revolutionaries.  Silly ideologues.  Snap out of it!</p>
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		<title>By: A Second Hand Conjecture &#187; Shiite hegemony and the dirty victory</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2007/03/13/libertarians-and-war-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-54675</link>
		<dc:creator>A Second Hand Conjecture &#187; Shiite hegemony and the dirty victory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2007 09:04:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=15#comment-54675</guid>
		<description>[...] from Stephen Cox: Piling up statistics about wars is useful in showing the scale of choice and preference, and in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] from Stephen Cox: Piling up statistics about wars is useful in showing the scale of choice and preference, and in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: A Second Hand Conjecture &#187; &#8220;The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2007/03/13/libertarians-and-war-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-45875</link>
		<dc:creator>A Second Hand Conjecture &#187; &#8220;The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer&#8221;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2007 15:00:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=15#comment-45875</guid>
		<description>[...] course I made a similar argument in regards to foreign policy, which Alex might have more of a problem [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] course I made a similar argument in regards to foreign policy, which Alex might have more of a problem [...]</p>
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		<title>By: A Second Hand Conjecture &#187; The other side of the Vietnam story, implications for Iraq and the strange metamorphosis of Jim webb</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2007/03/13/libertarians-and-war-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-23496</link>
		<dc:creator>A Second Hand Conjecture &#187; The other side of the Vietnam story, implications for Iraq and the strange metamorphosis of Jim webb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:51:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=15#comment-23496</guid>
		<description>[...] Like in the essay above I care about what happens to the Iraqi&#8217;s. I shiver when I think about what will happen to Mohammed of Iraq the Model and his family. I see the most vibrant and encouraging place in the Middle East, Kurdistan, and go cold at the thought of their dismemberment as we abandon them once again. I am not an isolationist or one who thinks our immediate interests or desires trump all other factors. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Like in the essay above I care about what happens to the Iraqi&#8217;s. I shiver when I think about what will happen to Mohammed of Iraq the Model and his family. I see the most vibrant and encouraging place in the Middle East, Kurdistan, and go cold at the thought of their dismemberment as we abandon them once again. I am not an isolationist or one who thinks our immediate interests or desires trump all other factors. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lance</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2007/03/13/libertarians-and-war-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-8817</link>
		<dc:creator>Lance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Nov 2006 04:45:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=15#comment-8817</guid>
		<description>Eeek! Upon re-reading this I note I refer to Ilya as her. I have edited that and should Ilya ever show up again my apologies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eeek! Upon re-reading this I note I refer to Ilya as her. I have edited that and should Ilya ever show up again my apologies.</p>
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		<title>By: Lance</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2007/03/13/libertarians-and-war-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-8816</link>
		<dc:creator>Lance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Nov 2006 04:35:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=15#comment-8816</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;To the extent that some of the war effort is funded by scaling back other government programs, it could even have a short-term positive impact on individual liberty, though Iâ€™m reluctant to advocate anyone go to war for that reason.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, our present situation would certainly make that wise council, but in principle I think we are in agreement. In addition, even large interventions have been rolled back in the past, though of course not so much in this century.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>To the extent that some of the war effort is funded by scaling back other government programs, it could even have a short-term positive impact on individual liberty, though Iâ€™m reluctant to advocate anyone go to war for that reason.</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, our present situation would certainly make that wise council, but in principle I think we are in agreement. In addition, even large interventions have been rolled back in the past, though of course not so much in this century.</p>
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		<title>By: Xrlq</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2007/03/13/libertarians-and-war-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-8813</link>
		<dc:creator>Xrlq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Nov 2006 04:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=15#comment-8813</guid>
		<description>My sense is that any war will necessarily expand the state for the duration of the war, but not afterward.  If the war can be prosecuted successfully without a draft, heavy rationing, or other drastic measures that are largely unknown today, even its short term impact on personal liberty will likely be negligible.  To the extent that some of the war effort is funded by scaling back other government programs, it could even have a short-term &lt;i&gt;positive&lt;/i&gt; impact on individual liberty, though I&#039;m reluctant to advocate anyone go to war for that reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My sense is that any war will necessarily expand the state for the duration of the war, but not afterward.  If the war can be prosecuted successfully without a draft, heavy rationing, or other drastic measures that are largely unknown today, even its short term impact on personal liberty will likely be negligible.  To the extent that some of the war effort is funded by scaling back other government programs, it could even have a short-term <i>positive</i> impact on individual liberty, though I&#8217;m reluctant to advocate anyone go to war for that reason.</p>
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		<title>By: Lance</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2007/03/13/libertarians-and-war-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-8778</link>
		<dc:creator>Lance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Nov 2006 01:33:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=15#comment-8778</guid>
		<description>Oh and thanks for the feedback, it is much appreciated. Especially on stuff back when our visitors (well, it was just me then) numbered in the dozens (if that) not thousands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh and thanks for the feedback, it is much appreciated. Especially on stuff back when our visitors (well, it was just me then) numbered in the dozens (if that) not thousands.</p>
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		<title>By: Lance</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2007/03/13/libertarians-and-war-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-8777</link>
		<dc:creator>Lance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Nov 2006 01:31:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=15#comment-8777</guid>
		<description>A good point, and a further ambiguity that naive moralizing ignores.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A good point, and a further ambiguity that naive moralizing ignores.</p>
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		<title>By: jjv</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2007/03/13/libertarians-and-war-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-8776</link>
		<dc:creator>jjv</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Nov 2006 01:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=15#comment-8776</guid>
		<description>I have only one thought on this post.  The British Empire of the 18th and 19th century expanded liberty everywhere it went.  Especially if you care about free trade and free navigation and the abolition of slavery.  Would it have been better for liberty if Britain had kept its views only to itself and not exported them through war and colonialism?  I think that liberty was expanded by the advance of the Union Jack by diplomacy, religion, and yes war.  If the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries had not been militarily dominated by liberty advancing powers where would libertarians be today in America or anywhere else?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have only one thought on this post.  The British Empire of the 18th and 19th century expanded liberty everywhere it went.  Especially if you care about free trade and free navigation and the abolition of slavery.  Would it have been better for liberty if Britain had kept its views only to itself and not exported them through war and colonialism?  I think that liberty was expanded by the advance of the Union Jack by diplomacy, religion, and yes war.  If the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries had not been militarily dominated by liberty advancing powers where would libertarians be today in America or anywhere else?</p>
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