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	<title>Comments on: Thanks Aslam, but what about Taqiyya?</title>
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	<description>Questions through the veil of ignorance</description>
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		<title>By: The Poet Omar</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/11/02/thanks-aslam-but-what-about-taqiyya/comment-page-1/#comment-5370</link>
		<dc:creator>The Poet Omar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Nov 2006 21:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=231#comment-5370</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Are there any religions which either make a virtue of deception or absolutely and unequivocally forbid it under any circumstances? &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Possibly rhetorical, Achillea, but I&#039;ll take a shot.  As far as I am aware, deception is not considered a virture by any currently practiced religion.  The second part of the question is more complicated as we have to define what is meant by deception.  Clearly in the Abrahamic model, the devout are told that falsehood constitutes a sin, or transgression against God or man, but there are certainly situational &quot;outs.&quot;  In fact, the above example of Peter that Michael provided as well as Lance&#039;s explanation of life during the Inquisition and the Reconquista are both illustrative of the value of life over absolute compliance with the letter of the law.  The Talmud also contains examples of Rabbis or scholars counseling minor falsehood to avoid either hurt feelings or more serious injuries.  On the other hand, the Buddhist concept of self-deception and the reality of what we perceive in the material world as well as Taoist views on this matter complicate the question.  For example, I recently read an interesting debate on belief.net concerning whether a Buddhist should marry or not.  The issues of attachment in the material world and the potential self-deception of &quot;marriage&quot; were both key points used by both sides.  So, you have definitely raised a very interesting question, and I suspect that the closest we can get to a religious system absolutely opposed to falsehood would be Buddhism.  The important thing to keep in mind here is that Buddhism&#039;s concern is not necessarily with worldly &quot;deceptions&quot; (or lies, fabrications, etc.), but more importantly with self-deception.  Hinduism also features an interesting take on this and we would do well to remember Mohandas Gandhi&#039;s recommendation to the Jews of Europe : embrace who you are, surrender to passive resistance, and accept death at the hand of your persecutors (the Nazis) rather than commit falsehood or violence in order to preserve your life.  That&#039;s pretty absolute to me, although I don&#039;t believe that Mr. Gandhi was considered an orthodox Hindu.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Are there any religions which either make a virtue of deception or absolutely and unequivocally forbid it under any circumstances? </p></blockquote>
<p>Possibly rhetorical, Achillea, but I&#8217;ll take a shot.  As far as I am aware, deception is not considered a virture by any currently practiced religion.  The second part of the question is more complicated as we have to define what is meant by deception.  Clearly in the Abrahamic model, the devout are told that falsehood constitutes a sin, or transgression against God or man, but there are certainly situational &#8220;outs.&#8221;  In fact, the above example of Peter that Michael provided as well as Lance&#8217;s explanation of life during the Inquisition and the Reconquista are both illustrative of the value of life over absolute compliance with the letter of the law.  The Talmud also contains examples of Rabbis or scholars counseling minor falsehood to avoid either hurt feelings or more serious injuries.  On the other hand, the Buddhist concept of self-deception and the reality of what we perceive in the material world as well as Taoist views on this matter complicate the question.  For example, I recently read an interesting debate on belief.net concerning whether a Buddhist should marry or not.  The issues of attachment in the material world and the potential self-deception of &#8220;marriage&#8221; were both key points used by both sides.  So, you have definitely raised a very interesting question, and I suspect that the closest we can get to a religious system absolutely opposed to falsehood would be Buddhism.  The important thing to keep in mind here is that Buddhism&#8217;s concern is not necessarily with worldly &#8220;deceptions&#8221; (or lies, fabrications, etc.), but more importantly with self-deception.  Hinduism also features an interesting take on this and we would do well to remember Mohandas Gandhi&#8217;s recommendation to the Jews of Europe : embrace who you are, surrender to passive resistance, and accept death at the hand of your persecutors (the Nazis) rather than commit falsehood or violence in order to preserve your life.  That&#8217;s pretty absolute to me, although I don&#8217;t believe that Mr. Gandhi was considered an orthodox Hindu.</p>
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		<title>By: Achillea</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/11/02/thanks-aslam-but-what-about-taqiyya/comment-page-1/#comment-5365</link>
		<dc:creator>Achillea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Nov 2006 20:56:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=231#comment-5365</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;I thank Aslam Abdullah.&lt;/em&gt;

As do I.  May there be many more of him (and may they start getting themselves in front of microphones ASAP).

As far as &lt;em&gt;taqiyyah&lt;/em&gt; goes, is there any evidence that Mr. Abdullah is a liar in general or happens to be lying in this instance?  Has he been caught engaging in mendacity before?  Is he saying something radically different in Arabic?  If not, then I have no reason not to take him at his word.  

In my experience, someone who wants (or needs) strongly enough to lie will do so, regardless of religion or lack thereof.  If he can&#039;t find a way to torque whatever his philosohical/scriptural belief system might be into authorizing (or at least forgiving/ignoring) the deceit, then he&#039;ll simply blow off the system in that regard. 

Are there any religions which either make a virtue of deception or absolutely and unequivocally forbid it under any circumstances?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>I thank Aslam Abdullah.</em></p>
<p>As do I.  May there be many more of him (and may they start getting themselves in front of microphones ASAP).</p>
<p>As far as <em>taqiyyah</em> goes, is there any evidence that Mr. Abdullah is a liar in general or happens to be lying in this instance?  Has he been caught engaging in mendacity before?  Is he saying something radically different in Arabic?  If not, then I have no reason not to take him at his word.  </p>
<p>In my experience, someone who wants (or needs) strongly enough to lie will do so, regardless of religion or lack thereof.  If he can&#8217;t find a way to torque whatever his philosohical/scriptural belief system might be into authorizing (or at least forgiving/ignoring) the deceit, then he&#8217;ll simply blow off the system in that regard. </p>
<p>Are there any religions which either make a virtue of deception or absolutely and unequivocally forbid it under any circumstances?</p>
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		<title>By: MichaelW</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/11/02/thanks-aslam-but-what-about-taqiyya/comment-page-1/#comment-5203</link>
		<dc:creator>MichaelW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Nov 2006 05:52:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=231#comment-5203</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;However, the vast majority of Christians do feel that a lie to preserve their life is justified, and most priests and chaplains would argue that when the killers come knocking, lying about your beliefs would be justified.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In fact, St. Peter did so three times, as prophesied by Jesus, after Jesus was captured and was being prepared to be nailed to his tree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>However, the vast majority of Christians do feel that a lie to preserve their life is justified, and most priests and chaplains would argue that when the killers come knocking, lying about your beliefs would be justified.</p></blockquote>
<p>In fact, St. Peter did so three times, as prophesied by Jesus, after Jesus was captured and was being prepared to be nailed to his tree.</p>
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		<title>By: Lance</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/11/02/thanks-aslam-but-what-about-taqiyya/comment-page-1/#comment-5195</link>
		<dc:creator>Lance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Nov 2006 03:28:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=231#comment-5195</guid>
		<description>Don,

I understand what you are saying, and certainly some Christians, especially in the early church held such a view of witness. However, the vast majority of Christians do feel that a lie to preserve their life is justified, and most priests and chaplains would argue that when the killers come knocking, lying about your beliefs would be justified. In fact both Jews and Christians did so in the face of the inquisition, as did many Muslims. It may not have been a formal doctrine, but such justifications are  part of Christian teaching among many groups of Christians. Moreover my point wasn&#039;t specifically to compare to other religions, since the greatest crimes of this century have not been perpetrated by the religious, but on secular grounds. The secular or weakly religious certainly feel justified in lying to achieve their aims and have elaborate theoretical justifications far more liberal in that matter than the Shia concept of Taqiyya.

The doctrinal &quot;out&quot; of course is only available to Shia and only in the face of extreme persecution, so for others the lie or deception is merely a lie or act of deceit, whether they claim a doctrinal basis or not. As far as I am aware Bin Laden and the other Sunni terror groups have not justified any of their deceptions as being based on Taqiyya, but rather as justified under the same kind of rationale as non Muslim terrorists and murderers have. So while I see your point, it doesn&#039;t seem to be all that big a difference. Of course I am not suggesting you were saying otherwise, I just wanted to elaborate on the theme.

As for your second comment, how true. In fact I have a post I am planning sooner or later on that very issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don,</p>
<p>I understand what you are saying, and certainly some Christians, especially in the early church held such a view of witness. However, the vast majority of Christians do feel that a lie to preserve their life is justified, and most priests and chaplains would argue that when the killers come knocking, lying about your beliefs would be justified. In fact both Jews and Christians did so in the face of the inquisition, as did many Muslims. It may not have been a formal doctrine, but such justifications are  part of Christian teaching among many groups of Christians. Moreover my point wasn&#8217;t specifically to compare to other religions, since the greatest crimes of this century have not been perpetrated by the religious, but on secular grounds. The secular or weakly religious certainly feel justified in lying to achieve their aims and have elaborate theoretical justifications far more liberal in that matter than the Shia concept of Taqiyya.</p>
<p>The doctrinal &#8220;out&#8221; of course is only available to Shia and only in the face of extreme persecution, so for others the lie or deception is merely a lie or act of deceit, whether they claim a doctrinal basis or not. As far as I am aware Bin Laden and the other Sunni terror groups have not justified any of their deceptions as being based on Taqiyya, but rather as justified under the same kind of rationale as non Muslim terrorists and murderers have. So while I see your point, it doesn&#8217;t seem to be all that big a difference. Of course I am not suggesting you were saying otherwise, I just wanted to elaborate on the theme.</p>
<p>As for your second comment, how true. In fact I have a post I am planning sooner or later on that very issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/11/02/thanks-aslam-but-what-about-taqiyya/comment-page-1/#comment-5152</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Nov 2006 20:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=231#comment-5152</guid>
		<description>As an aside, human memories are not &quot;real&quot;, but are stored in the brain and are subject to modification or even complete invention.

Long ago I created a memory in a friend, by telling him a story several times. He later thought he witnessed it, but I&#039;m pretty sure he didn&#039;t. I did this by accident, but one could attempt to do so intentially.

One could formulate a lie and teach it to someone or even one&#039;s self, I think. The powerful lie is the one you yourself believe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an aside, human memories are not &#8220;real&#8221;, but are stored in the brain and are subject to modification or even complete invention.</p>
<p>Long ago I created a memory in a friend, by telling him a story several times. He later thought he witnessed it, but I&#8217;m pretty sure he didn&#8217;t. I did this by accident, but one could attempt to do so intentially.</p>
<p>One could formulate a lie and teach it to someone or even one&#8217;s self, I think. The powerful lie is the one you yourself believe.</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/11/02/thanks-aslam-but-what-about-taqiyya/comment-page-1/#comment-5151</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Nov 2006 20:16:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=231#comment-5151</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Yes, that is exactly what I mean. I donâ€™t buy the notion that Taqiyyah is what is being used to justify most lies we hear from Muslims, I would suggest they lie for the same reasons we all do, it is convenient, it works, etc. I find the idea that Al Qaeda or other terrorist groups may lie to achieve their aims pretty unexceptional. If they use Taqiyya as an excuse I cannot see how that should bother me any more than if they just did it with no excuse.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

To a large extent I think you are correct, but it should still bother you that Taqiyya possibly provides a doctrine allowing such lies.

We know that Christians lie, but it goes against Christian doctrine. A true Christian who lies will have to feel some level of guilt. I&#039;d presume that this would &quot;show&quot;. A doctrine that allows one to lie without such guilt is a useful tool for a lier. 

A key aspect of Christian faith is that one should witness, even to those who would destroy you. Show courage walking into the lion&#039;s den, etc. Looks like Islam prefers an &quot;out&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Yes, that is exactly what I mean. I donâ€™t buy the notion that Taqiyyah is what is being used to justify most lies we hear from Muslims, I would suggest they lie for the same reasons we all do, it is convenient, it works, etc. I find the idea that Al Qaeda or other terrorist groups may lie to achieve their aims pretty unexceptional. If they use Taqiyya as an excuse I cannot see how that should bother me any more than if they just did it with no excuse.</p></blockquote>
<p>To a large extent I think you are correct, but it should still bother you that Taqiyya possibly provides a doctrine allowing such lies.</p>
<p>We know that Christians lie, but it goes against Christian doctrine. A true Christian who lies will have to feel some level of guilt. I&#8217;d presume that this would &#8220;show&#8221;. A doctrine that allows one to lie without such guilt is a useful tool for a lier. </p>
<p>A key aspect of Christian faith is that one should witness, even to those who would destroy you. Show courage walking into the lion&#8217;s den, etc. Looks like Islam prefers an &#8220;out&#8221;.</p>
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