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	<title>Comments on: The One About Arabs</title>
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	<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/</link>
	<description>Questions through the veil of ignorance</description>
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		<title>By: Mobile County Marriage License</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/comment-page-1/#comment-227747</link>
		<dc:creator>Mobile County Marriage License</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Apr 2010 18:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=193#comment-227747</guid>
		<description>I found this video about A Second Hand Conjecture &#187; The One About Arabs quite different than ones that I found before.  Do you have any more?  Thanks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found this video about A Second Hand Conjecture &raquo; The One About Arabs quite different than ones that I found before.  Do you have any more?  Thanks</p>
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		<title>By: Cheb Khaled</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/comment-page-1/#comment-7377</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheb Khaled</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:11:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=193#comment-7377</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;french occupation of algeria...&lt;/strong&gt;

Interesting post. I came across this blog by accident, but it was a good accident. I have now bookmarked your blog for future use. Best wishes. Cheb Khaled Website Team....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>french occupation of algeria&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Interesting post. I came across this blog by accident, but it was a good accident. I have now bookmarked your blog for future use. Best wishes. Cheb Khaled Website Team&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: DRJ</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/comment-page-1/#comment-3976</link>
		<dc:creator>DRJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Oct 2006 18:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=193#comment-3976</guid>
		<description>Omar,

On the military issues, it would be comforting to think of the American military as a world-wide version of a local SWAT team.  However, I think future conflicts will be even more challenging as technology changes the battlefield and the combatants.  Thus, the American military will probably be given even more nebulous and challenging assignments in the future.  

Ultimately, all that stands between &quot;us&quot; and &quot;them&quot; is our military. In your scenario, battles would essentially be micromanaged by civilian authorities as targeted assignments that minimize unwanted propaganda effects.  I&#039;m not sure I see the overall benefits from a propaganda-driven approach or that I want to reduce American military commanders to the status of SWAT team leaders.  

As we saw in Vietnam and now again in Iraq, propaganda and the media are obviously important.  That doesn&#039;t mean we are incapable of counteracting propaganda with actions and facts.  Just because some may call it a quagmire doesn&#039;t make it one.  IMHO the answer is not to go underground with precise objectives but to illuminate our goals through public information.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Omar,</p>
<p>On the military issues, it would be comforting to think of the American military as a world-wide version of a local SWAT team.  However, I think future conflicts will be even more challenging as technology changes the battlefield and the combatants.  Thus, the American military will probably be given even more nebulous and challenging assignments in the future.  </p>
<p>Ultimately, all that stands between &#8220;us&#8221; and &#8220;them&#8221; is our military. In your scenario, battles would essentially be micromanaged by civilian authorities as targeted assignments that minimize unwanted propaganda effects.  I&#8217;m not sure I see the overall benefits from a propaganda-driven approach or that I want to reduce American military commanders to the status of SWAT team leaders.  </p>
<p>As we saw in Vietnam and now again in Iraq, propaganda and the media are obviously important.  That doesn&#8217;t mean we are incapable of counteracting propaganda with actions and facts.  Just because some may call it a quagmire doesn&#8217;t make it one.  IMHO the answer is not to go underground with precise objectives but to illuminate our goals through public information.</p>
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		<title>By: DRJ</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/comment-page-1/#comment-3975</link>
		<dc:creator>DRJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Oct 2006 18:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=193#comment-3975</guid>
		<description>Omar,

Is it possible that America&#039;s relentless cultural exchange contributes to the alienation you describe? In other words, the more some people are inundated with American products and culture, the more they push back to preserve their own cultures - especially the young who may actually be less flexible than their assimilating parents.

I don&#039;t think America should embrace isolationism - that&#039;s foolish and impossible - but I&#039;m not convinced that assimilation or coexistence through increasingly passionate cultural exchange/dialogue is the answer.  There has to be a reciprocal desire to assimilate or coexist.  Absent that, I think it takes a carrot and a stick.  Maybe that&#039;s your point and, if so, we agree.  My point is that Americans should realize by now that carrots alone don&#039;t work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Omar,</p>
<p>Is it possible that America&#8217;s relentless cultural exchange contributes to the alienation you describe? In other words, the more some people are inundated with American products and culture, the more they push back to preserve their own cultures &#8211; especially the young who may actually be less flexible than their assimilating parents.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think America should embrace isolationism &#8211; that&#8217;s foolish and impossible &#8211; but I&#8217;m not convinced that assimilation or coexistence through increasingly passionate cultural exchange/dialogue is the answer.  There has to be a reciprocal desire to assimilate or coexist.  Absent that, I think it takes a carrot and a stick.  Maybe that&#8217;s your point and, if so, we agree.  My point is that Americans should realize by now that carrots alone don&#8217;t work.</p>
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		<title>By: The Poet Omar</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/comment-page-1/#comment-3961</link>
		<dc:creator>The Poet Omar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=193#comment-3961</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;First, good luck on tailoring military objectives so no one can reasonably disagree.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Oh, I don&#039;t entertain the notion that no one will disagree.  I just believe that with highly specific objectives that don&#039;t leave the military high and dry holding their guns wondering what to do next, leftists can&#039;t rise up and begin the chants of &quot;quagmire, quagmire.&quot;  

&lt;blockquote&gt;Itâ€™s clear that yesterdayâ€™s extremists are todayâ€™s mainstream.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Referring to whom or what, specifically?  Amongst lefties?  Absolutely.  We have Castroites and openly declared socialists serving in the United States Congress.  And no one questions this.  Sad.  Very sad.

&lt;blockquote&gt;In an institution like the military, itâ€™s more SNAFU than Swiss.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Eh, I suppose you&#039;re right, but if we would stop giving the military vague objectives that amount to biting off more than they can chew, they would be able to minimize the screw-ups.  Small, bite-size objectives give the professionals the opportunity to demonstrate precision.  At this point, I lean towards the McQ doctrine which says that at least 50% or so of our military needs to be rapidly deployable Special Forces type units.  [McQ, please correct me if I have misunderstood your ideas.]

&lt;blockquote&gt;I think it is more accurate to say other nations absorb Anerican culture rather than yield to it. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Now here, I may stand corrected.  Other nations do certainly absorb American culture, yet retain a good bit of their own flavor.  The problem, from their point of view, however is that their children are growing up bombarded by American culture (movies, jeans, Jello, etc.) and are demanding more and more of it.  This doesn&#039;t exactly pave the way for a traditionalist vision of the future for them.  This is where we start to have problems.  Parents don&#039;t want their kids turning into Britney Spers and K-Fed.  They want them to be good little Malaysians, Ugandans, Brazilians, whatever.  On the other hand, no foreign culture is in any way a threat to the US.  We absorb everything that comes our way.  They do not have the sort of influence over us that we have over them.  And that is very frightening to a lot of the world.  It&#039;s part of the reason that I support much, much more cultural exchange and sending US students abroad.  Until we are at least educated about other nations&#039; cultures, we have no chance of ever understanding their concerns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>First, good luck on tailoring military objectives so no one can reasonably disagree.</p></blockquote>
<p>Oh, I don&#8217;t entertain the notion that no one will disagree.  I just believe that with highly specific objectives that don&#8217;t leave the military high and dry holding their guns wondering what to do next, leftists can&#8217;t rise up and begin the chants of &#8220;quagmire, quagmire.&#8221;  </p>
<blockquote><p>Itâ€™s clear that yesterdayâ€™s extremists are todayâ€™s mainstream.</p></blockquote>
<p>Referring to whom or what, specifically?  Amongst lefties?  Absolutely.  We have Castroites and openly declared socialists serving in the United States Congress.  And no one questions this.  Sad.  Very sad.</p>
<blockquote><p>In an institution like the military, itâ€™s more SNAFU than Swiss.</p></blockquote>
<p>Eh, I suppose you&#8217;re right, but if we would stop giving the military vague objectives that amount to biting off more than they can chew, they would be able to minimize the screw-ups.  Small, bite-size objectives give the professionals the opportunity to demonstrate precision.  At this point, I lean towards the McQ doctrine which says that at least 50% or so of our military needs to be rapidly deployable Special Forces type units.  [McQ, please correct me if I have misunderstood your ideas.]</p>
<blockquote><p>I think it is more accurate to say other nations absorb Anerican culture rather than yield to it. </p></blockquote>
<p>Now here, I may stand corrected.  Other nations do certainly absorb American culture, yet retain a good bit of their own flavor.  The problem, from their point of view, however is that their children are growing up bombarded by American culture (movies, jeans, Jello, etc.) and are demanding more and more of it.  This doesn&#8217;t exactly pave the way for a traditionalist vision of the future for them.  This is where we start to have problems.  Parents don&#8217;t want their kids turning into Britney Spers and K-Fed.  They want them to be good little Malaysians, Ugandans, Brazilians, whatever.  On the other hand, no foreign culture is in any way a threat to the US.  We absorb everything that comes our way.  They do not have the sort of influence over us that we have over them.  And that is very frightening to a lot of the world.  It&#8217;s part of the reason that I support much, much more cultural exchange and sending US students abroad.  Until we are at least educated about other nations&#8217; cultures, we have no chance of ever understanding their concerns.</p>
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		<title>By: DRJ</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/comment-page-1/#comment-3933</link>
		<dc:creator>DRJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Oct 2006 05:03:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=193#comment-3933</guid>
		<description>Omar,

I appreciate that we somewhat agree but I think that&#039;s actually a gracious way of saying we don&#039;t agree ... and I&#039;m not sure we do.

First, good luck on tailoring military objectives so no one can reasonably disagree.  It&#039;s clear that yesterday&#039;s extremists are today&#039;s mainstream.  In addition, I agree the US has a dominant military but no matter how carefully you refine the mission, it&#039;s never going to work with the precision of a fine Swiss watch.  In an institution like the military, it&#039;s more SNAFU than Swiss.

Second, I think American culture is better described as pervasiave, not dominant.  America is like Kleenex, Jello, and Walmart - it exports generic culture.  I think it is more accurate to say other nations absorb Anerican culture rather than yield to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Omar,</p>
<p>I appreciate that we somewhat agree but I think that&#8217;s actually a gracious way of saying we don&#8217;t agree &#8230; and I&#8217;m not sure we do.</p>
<p>First, good luck on tailoring military objectives so no one can reasonably disagree.  It&#8217;s clear that yesterday&#8217;s extremists are today&#8217;s mainstream.  In addition, I agree the US has a dominant military but no matter how carefully you refine the mission, it&#8217;s never going to work with the precision of a fine Swiss watch.  In an institution like the military, it&#8217;s more SNAFU than Swiss.</p>
<p>Second, I think American culture is better described as pervasiave, not dominant.  America is like Kleenex, Jello, and Walmart &#8211; it exports generic culture.  I think it is more accurate to say other nations absorb Anerican culture rather than yield to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Lance</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/comment-page-1/#comment-3931</link>
		<dc:creator>Lance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Oct 2006 04:55:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=193#comment-3931</guid>
		<description>Achillea,

Oh no, I want a picture of that! I am posting it. In fact, I want as many people in ridiculous native wear as possible to e-mail them to me. I&#039;ll put together a photo album. Maybe I can capture that picture of Dale Franks on the boogie board to boot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Achillea,</p>
<p>Oh no, I want a picture of that! I am posting it. In fact, I want as many people in ridiculous native wear as possible to e-mail them to me. I&#8217;ll put together a photo album. Maybe I can capture that picture of Dale Franks on the boogie board to boot.</p>
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		<title>By: Achillea</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/comment-page-1/#comment-3930</link>
		<dc:creator>Achillea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Oct 2006 04:49:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=193#comment-3930</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;When was the last time any of us donned native dress from our ancestorsâ€™ homelands and went to a job-related meeting?&lt;/em&gt;

The last thing the world needs is me in a pair of lederhosen, so let&#039;s just not go there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>When was the last time any of us donned native dress from our ancestorsâ€™ homelands and went to a job-related meeting?</em></p>
<p>The last thing the world needs is me in a pair of lederhosen, so let&#8217;s just not go there.</p>
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		<title>By: The Poet Omar</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/comment-page-1/#comment-3885</link>
		<dc:creator>The Poet Omar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:19:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=193#comment-3885</guid>
		<description>DRJ, I somewhat agree with you regarding the attitudes of the left and its views of appropriate military force.  In fact, McQ of QandO posted a pretty good review of what the military is for and how it should be &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.qando.net/trackback.aspx?Entry=4771&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;used &lt;/a&gt;.  The problem lies not so much in the attitudes of the left, but in clearly defining the scope of the military&#039;s mission when it is felt that military force must be used.  If given a tightly defined objective, then given the support to used all of their available arsenal, the left cannot really interfere too much (other than street theater protests and the occasional NY Times ad).  

Culturally, the US is the most dominant nation in the world, bar none.  Aspects of our culture have infiltrated and become staples of just about every country in the world.  Coke, blue jeans, hair styles, movies, TV shows, etc. are all hugely popular around the world.We can&#039;t honestly say that about other nations&#039; cultures doing the same to us.  Heck, even Chinese and Mexican restaurants have had their menus altered to suit American tastes.  When was the last time any of us donned native dress from our ancestors&#039; homelands and went to a job-related meeting?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DRJ, I somewhat agree with you regarding the attitudes of the left and its views of appropriate military force.  In fact, McQ of QandO posted a pretty good review of what the military is for and how it should be <a href="http://www.qando.net/trackback.aspx?Entry=4771" rel="nofollow">used </a>.  The problem lies not so much in the attitudes of the left, but in clearly defining the scope of the military&#8217;s mission when it is felt that military force must be used.  If given a tightly defined objective, then given the support to used all of their available arsenal, the left cannot really interfere too much (other than street theater protests and the occasional NY Times ad).  </p>
<p>Culturally, the US is the most dominant nation in the world, bar none.  Aspects of our culture have infiltrated and become staples of just about every country in the world.  Coke, blue jeans, hair styles, movies, TV shows, etc. are all hugely popular around the world.We can&#8217;t honestly say that about other nations&#8217; cultures doing the same to us.  Heck, even Chinese and Mexican restaurants have had their menus altered to suit American tastes.  When was the last time any of us donned native dress from our ancestors&#8217; homelands and went to a job-related meeting?</p>
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		<title>By: The Poet Omar</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/comment-page-1/#comment-3884</link>
		<dc:creator>The Poet Omar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:57:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=193#comment-3884</guid>
		<description>Lance, good points about the French situation.  Their economy is stagnant and they definitely are inclined toward bias against immigrants in the hiring process.  By this point, after decades of simply hating the French, the North African immigrants have simply let the hatred manifest itself as physical violence.  There are no doubt some Islamists amongst them cheering their revolution (or, at this stage insurrection) on, pushing for them to accept a platform of imposing Sharia and turning France into an Islamic state.  This is probably not a hard sell, as they can&#039;t stand the French, the rest of Europe is circling the wagons to oppose the Muslim community, and the Islamists are preaching to them daily about how great the world was when they were ruled by a Caliph.  Of course that was over 500 years ago in the case of Algeria (which, if I remember was last ruled by the Hafsid dynasty [whose ruler used the title Caliph]).  After that they were an Ottoman protectorate, then the French moved in around 1830ish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lance, good points about the French situation.  Their economy is stagnant and they definitely are inclined toward bias against immigrants in the hiring process.  By this point, after decades of simply hating the French, the North African immigrants have simply let the hatred manifest itself as physical violence.  There are no doubt some Islamists amongst them cheering their revolution (or, at this stage insurrection) on, pushing for them to accept a platform of imposing Sharia and turning France into an Islamic state.  This is probably not a hard sell, as they can&#8217;t stand the French, the rest of Europe is circling the wagons to oppose the Muslim community, and the Islamists are preaching to them daily about how great the world was when they were ruled by a Caliph.  Of course that was over 500 years ago in the case of Algeria (which, if I remember was last ruled by the Hafsid dynasty [whose ruler used the title Caliph]).  After that they were an Ottoman protectorate, then the French moved in around 1830ish.</p>
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		<title>By: The Poet Omar</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/comment-page-1/#comment-3883</link>
		<dc:creator>The Poet Omar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:29:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=193#comment-3883</guid>
		<description>Lol, GM!  That may in fact be the only viable strategy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lol, GM!  That may in fact be the only viable strategy.</p>
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		<title>By: GM Roper</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/comment-page-1/#comment-3861</link>
		<dc:creator>GM Roper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Oct 2006 02:18:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=193#comment-3861</guid>
		<description>Omar, I appreciate the comment on my comment.  Your statement:  but the subtleties are lost on the American audience trained to view things at surface level and in black-and-white contrast.&quot; Reminds me of a department chair I once had at the College that I taught at.  He was a wild eyed, radical liberal but having said that, he did have an idea or two that was fairly decent.  One of them:  &lt;blockquote&gt;Sometimes you have to pound the obvious into their heads again, again and once again until they learn, until they see what is right in front of them.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;I think as bloggers we have a responsibility to tell the truth as we honestly see it and do so &quot;again, and again and once again until they learn, until they see what is right in front of them.&quot;  ;-)&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Omar, I appreciate the comment on my comment.  Your statement:  but the subtleties are lost on the American audience trained to view things at surface level and in black-and-white contrast.&#8221; Reminds me of a department chair I once had at the College that I taught at.  He was a wild eyed, radical liberal but having said that, he did have an idea or two that was fairly decent.  One of them:<br />
<blockquote>Sometimes you have to pound the obvious into their heads again, again and once again until they learn, until they see what is right in front of them.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>I think as bloggers we have a responsibility to tell the truth as we honestly see it and do so &#8220;again, and again and once again until they learn, until they see what is right in front of them.&#8221;  <img src='http://asecondhandconjecture.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Lance</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/comment-page-1/#comment-3836</link>
		<dc:creator>Lance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:53:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=193#comment-3836</guid>
		<description>Omar,

I think your breakdown is mostly correct, though I think that wile the basis for Muslim anger may be anti-colonialism in France, it has moved beyond that in the banlieu&#039;s. I also think the statist economy deprives immigrants in general, but particularly North Africans, much of an opportunity in France as well. Still, the rise of the radical Islamist in France is real.

It also doesn&#039;t take a large population of Islamist&#039;s to be a grave threat. Amongst the non Turkish population in Germany there are some severe issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Omar,</p>
<p>I think your breakdown is mostly correct, though I think that wile the basis for Muslim anger may be anti-colonialism in France, it has moved beyond that in the banlieu&#8217;s. I also think the statist economy deprives immigrants in general, but particularly North Africans, much of an opportunity in France as well. Still, the rise of the radical Islamist in France is real.</p>
<p>It also doesn&#8217;t take a large population of Islamist&#8217;s to be a grave threat. Amongst the non Turkish population in Germany there are some severe issues.</p>
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		<title>By: The Poet Omar</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/comment-page-1/#comment-3834</link>
		<dc:creator>The Poet Omar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:44:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=193#comment-3834</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;There is a very real case for having islamo-fascist-phobia in the west, as the IFs have shown themselves to be totally opposed to western culture which they see as sinful and degrading&lt;/blockquote&gt;

GM, that&#039;s a good point, but the subtleties are lost on the American audience trained to view things at surface level and in black-and-white contrast.  The Islamist or Islamofascist are indeed people to be feared, or rather confronted, but they should not be confused with Islam or Muslims as a whole.  Islam, as you seem to know very well, is no more a monolithic entity than is Christianity or &quot;the West.&quot;  In discussions related to Islamofascists or Islamists, often the lines blur and the topic becomes simply, &quot;Islam.&quot;

&lt;blockquote&gt;They truly do wish to supplant much law with their own laws based on the Koran (Sharia) as evidenced by the recent brouhaha in Canada and the demands in the Netherlands and Denmark.&lt;/blockquote&gt; 

Ah, but here is the root of the problem with the ongoing siege mentality which has developed concerning Muslims in Europe.  The actual immigrants in Holland, Britain, France, Germany, etc. are of different ethnicities, nationalities, and cultures.  In France, we have primarily Algerian and Moroccan Northwest Africans who are descended from (or are themselves) witnesses to the brutal anti-colonial wars in the very recent past.  The anti-French feelings which developed have not only lingered, but grown in the children.  I see the problem there as being anti-French/anti-colonialist revolution, not imposition of Sharia.

In Britain, OTOH, we have mainly Pakistani and Indian Muslims, with a smattering of Persians, Iraqis, Egyptians, and, for lack of a better term, Palestinians.  These folks are from hardcore fundamentalist backgrounds and are not particularly interested in integrating into British society.  That is an issue of Sharia and its implementation.

Still a third area of concern is Germany.  Muslim immigrants to Germany are primarily Turkish in origin and most immigrated in the 1970&#039;s-1980&#039;s as a cheap labor pool for the Germans.  Although I suspect that Turkish have no desire to put on liederhosen and eat sauerkraut, they are also, IMHO, equally disinterested in imposing Sharia law.  Turkey has been a highly secular nation since approximately the end of the First World War.  Sharia takes a backseat to the demands of civil law.  Why would Turkish immigrants desire to impose a system which is alien to them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>There is a very real case for having islamo-fascist-phobia in the west, as the IFs have shown themselves to be totally opposed to western culture which they see as sinful and degrading</p></blockquote>
<p>GM, that&#8217;s a good point, but the subtleties are lost on the American audience trained to view things at surface level and in black-and-white contrast.  The Islamist or Islamofascist are indeed people to be feared, or rather confronted, but they should not be confused with Islam or Muslims as a whole.  Islam, as you seem to know very well, is no more a monolithic entity than is Christianity or &#8220;the West.&#8221;  In discussions related to Islamofascists or Islamists, often the lines blur and the topic becomes simply, &#8220;Islam.&#8221;</p>
<blockquote><p>They truly do wish to supplant much law with their own laws based on the Koran (Sharia) as evidenced by the recent brouhaha in Canada and the demands in the Netherlands and Denmark.</p></blockquote>
<p>Ah, but here is the root of the problem with the ongoing siege mentality which has developed concerning Muslims in Europe.  The actual immigrants in Holland, Britain, France, Germany, etc. are of different ethnicities, nationalities, and cultures.  In France, we have primarily Algerian and Moroccan Northwest Africans who are descended from (or are themselves) witnesses to the brutal anti-colonial wars in the very recent past.  The anti-French feelings which developed have not only lingered, but grown in the children.  I see the problem there as being anti-French/anti-colonialist revolution, not imposition of Sharia.</p>
<p>In Britain, OTOH, we have mainly Pakistani and Indian Muslims, with a smattering of Persians, Iraqis, Egyptians, and, for lack of a better term, Palestinians.  These folks are from hardcore fundamentalist backgrounds and are not particularly interested in integrating into British society.  That is an issue of Sharia and its implementation.</p>
<p>Still a third area of concern is Germany.  Muslim immigrants to Germany are primarily Turkish in origin and most immigrated in the 1970&#8242;s-1980&#8242;s as a cheap labor pool for the Germans.  Although I suspect that Turkish have no desire to put on liederhosen and eat sauerkraut, they are also, IMHO, equally disinterested in imposing Sharia law.  Turkey has been a highly secular nation since approximately the end of the First World War.  Sharia takes a backseat to the demands of civil law.  Why would Turkish immigrants desire to impose a system which is alien to them?</p>
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		<title>By: DRJ</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/comment-page-1/#comment-3832</link>
		<dc:creator>DRJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:25:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=193#comment-3832</guid>
		<description>Having said that, I don&#039;t agree with your conclusions.  For instance, I believe that many Americans view the US as militarily but not culturally dominant, which places us in the interesting position of having to reach out in peace no matter how violent our attackers may be.  The more they attack us, the more understanding we are expected to be (e.g., like &lt;a href=&quot;http://swoboblog.blogspot.com/2006/10/damn-you-roy-rogers-and-errol-flynn.html#comments&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having said that, I don&#8217;t agree with your conclusions.  For instance, I believe that many Americans view the US as militarily but not culturally dominant, which places us in the interesting position of having to reach out in peace no matter how violent our attackers may be.  The more they attack us, the more understanding we are expected to be (e.g., like <a href="http://swoboblog.blogspot.com/2006/10/damn-you-roy-rogers-and-errol-flynn.html#comments" rel="nofollow">this</a>).</p>
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		<title>By: GM Roper</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/comment-page-1/#comment-3831</link>
		<dc:creator>GM Roper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=193#comment-3831</guid>
		<description>Omar, decent and well thought out post.  In general, you find me agreeing with each point that you make.  I would also point out, that perhas Browne was speaking in general of the Arab (and to some degree the Persian) exemplified by the islamo-fascist.  I have employed a muslim counselors in the past and found her to be an exceptional counselor with a real feeling for the emotional anguish of the client(s) that we deal with in the psycho-therapy profession.  Having said that, I&#039;ve also met with and developed a fairly quick dislike for some rather arrogant and unfriendly Muslims/Arabs (and other nationalities as well if that needs to be said). 

I take issue with only one section so far (and totally off the top of my head).  From your analysis:  &lt;blockquote&gt;We take for granted that we are a dominant civilization still on the way up. They are acutely aware that they are a civilization on the skids.

Do we? I canâ€™t count the number of references to cultural suicide that Iâ€™ve seen posted on LGF, JihadWatch, and other Islamophobe websites. Or the never-ending rhetoric about how Western Europe is about to be conquered by the Sharia spouting Muslim horde. As for Arabs being acutely aware that their civilization is on the downslope right now, Iâ€™d tend to agree. Although letâ€™s be careful to say that they are on the downslope from a geopolitical standpoint. I would suggest that Arabs are just as confident about their culture as anyone else.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There is a very real case for having islamo-fascist-phobia in the west, as the IFs have shown themselves to be totally opposed to western culture which they see as sinful and degrading.  They truly do wish to supplant much law with their own laws based on the Koran (Sharia) as evidenced by the recent brouhaha in Canada and the demands in the Netherlands and Denmark.  

Too, the IFs absolutely wish to eliminate both Israel as a geopolitical force and the Jews as a people and have dedicated much of their planning to this end. (and this long predates any Israeli occupation of the West Bank or Gaza).  Again, when it comes to the islamo-fascist, a healthy dose of phobia (and it isn&#039;t a totally irrational fear of these people - they have bombed trains, busses and flown planes into buildings) can and perhaps should be borne by the west.

A good post. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Omar, decent and well thought out post.  In general, you find me agreeing with each point that you make.  I would also point out, that perhas Browne was speaking in general of the Arab (and to some degree the Persian) exemplified by the islamo-fascist.  I have employed a muslim counselors in the past and found her to be an exceptional counselor with a real feeling for the emotional anguish of the client(s) that we deal with in the psycho-therapy profession.  Having said that, I&#8217;ve also met with and developed a fairly quick dislike for some rather arrogant and unfriendly Muslims/Arabs (and other nationalities as well if that needs to be said). </p>
<p>I take issue with only one section so far (and totally off the top of my head).  From your analysis:<br />
<blockquote>We take for granted that we are a dominant civilization still on the way up. They are acutely aware that they are a civilization on the skids.</p>
<p>Do we? I canâ€™t count the number of references to cultural suicide that Iâ€™ve seen posted on LGF, JihadWatch, and other Islamophobe websites. Or the never-ending rhetoric about how Western Europe is about to be conquered by the Sharia spouting Muslim horde. As for Arabs being acutely aware that their civilization is on the downslope right now, Iâ€™d tend to agree. Although letâ€™s be careful to say that they are on the downslope from a geopolitical standpoint. I would suggest that Arabs are just as confident about their culture as anyone else.</p></blockquote>
<p>There is a very real case for having islamo-fascist-phobia in the west, as the IFs have shown themselves to be totally opposed to western culture which they see as sinful and degrading.  They truly do wish to supplant much law with their own laws based on the Koran (Sharia) as evidenced by the recent brouhaha in Canada and the demands in the Netherlands and Denmark.  </p>
<p>Too, the IFs absolutely wish to eliminate both Israel as a geopolitical force and the Jews as a people and have dedicated much of their planning to this end. (and this long predates any Israeli occupation of the West Bank or Gaza).  Again, when it comes to the islamo-fascist, a healthy dose of phobia (and it isn&#8217;t a totally irrational fear of these people &#8211; they have bombed trains, busses and flown planes into buildings) can and perhaps should be borne by the west.</p>
<p>A good post. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: DRJ</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/comment-page-1/#comment-3829</link>
		<dc:creator>DRJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:13:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=193#comment-3829</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m glad you happened across GM&#039;s corner of the blogosphere.  Your blog and GM&#039;s are well-written and thoughtful, and I benefit from reading both.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad you happened across GM&#8217;s corner of the blogosphere.  Your blog and GM&#8217;s are well-written and thoughtful, and I benefit from reading both.</p>
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		<title>By: MichaelW</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/comment-page-1/#comment-3814</link>
		<dc:creator>MichaelW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:36:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=193#comment-3814</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I mean, what are Michael and I going to do with our portable genocide machines if you keep this up?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No big deal.  Mine&#039;s in the shop (it&#039;s a Diebold).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I mean, what are Michael and I going to do with our portable genocide machines if you keep this up?</p></blockquote>
<p>No big deal.  Mine&#8217;s in the shop (it&#8217;s a Diebold).</p>
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		<title>By: Lance</title>
		<link>http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2006/10/18/the-one-about-arabs/comment-page-1/#comment-3812</link>
		<dc:creator>Lance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:28:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asecondhandconjecture.com/?p=193#comment-3812</guid>
		<description>Careful Omar,

Many are of the opinion in certain quarters that we are in favor of neo-con gunslinging across the world here. I mean, what are Michael and I going to do with our portable genocide machines if you keep this up?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Careful Omar,</p>
<p>Many are of the opinion in certain quarters that we are in favor of neo-con gunslinging across the world here. I mean, what are Michael and I going to do with our portable genocide machines if you keep this up?</p>
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